episode 5 – visualizing the invisible | Laura F. Gibellini

In this episode, we speak with Laura F. Gibellini a process-based artist. In her works, she explores the ways to visualize the invisible in life, specifically, air, time, and light. In an age where visualization, especially of data, is required, Gibellini’s work can give us a new perspective, ideas, and approach to understand better the process of visualization. We discuss what is the role of art, how someone can challenge herself? what we can learn from art to amplify messages or just to understand the issues in the world.

This episode was recorded in Google For Startups Creator Studios Madrid.

Resources and links

Artworks and other topics mentioned during the podcast can be seen in the following links:


The transcribe was produced by an Ai, mistakes might appear. 

Nir Hindi: Hey, podcast, listeners, welcome to Artian podcast. And thank you for joining us.

One of our goals in this podcast is actually to reveal, expose, and relate the way artists’ things to the world of business technology and innovation. My name is Neil and I’m the founder of the Artian. And today joining me the Spanish process-based artist; Laura Fernandez Gibellini. Hello. Before we start, I want to give kind of a, our listener, maybe a brief introduction to who you are.

So you have been working and living in between Madrid and New York. You are the faculty member of the MFA in the art practice in the school of visual arts in New York and at the competency university here in Madrid. You exhibited all around the world in some of the exhibitions that you had, including places like the Spanish Academy in Rome and artists in residence in the Banff center for art and creativity in Canada and the ISCP in New York and the Eldridge foundation in Connecticut. Laura, before we kind of get into your work, we always know that there are painters and there are sculptor and there are actors, but what does it mean “a process-based artist”.

Laura F.: It means that I don’t work with one idea, but with ideas that evolve as I work. So that means that I have, it’s not that I have an image that I wanted to pick like a picture or something, but more than I’m thinking about certain things, and as I work with materials, the ideas emerge and the work manifest itself. So it means that the process is more important than the product. Does that make sense?

Nir Hindi: Okay. It actually makes a lot of sense, especially when it comes to the way they are and they think. So, basically for you, painting and sculpture and video art for that matter, all of them are available for work to depict your ideas.

Great. So I want to kind of speak about your artistic interest and in your artist statement, you say that, and I’m quoting. “My work is an attempt to explore the gaps in possibilities of thinking the unthinkable. Now, when I read this sentence, I kind of felt about my presentation. There were the keynotes that I normally give and one of the sentences that I use that artists are imagining the unimaginable. What is the unthinkable for you and why, why you want to explore it?

Laura F.: So, the unthinkable would be that we have not there to think yet. That is something that we don’t know. I think artworks with ideas, but in a way that they are not totally fixed or set.

So we are, in art we are testing things and we are thinking about things, but there are other things that emerge in the practice that are those that we have in there to think before. It’s exactly what you say with imagining the unimaginable, but [NAME] says that imagination is not that which allows us to create images, but that, that transforms images.

So in the sense that we already, there are certain things that we think we know artworks with those things we don’t even know, we don’t know.

Nir Hindi: Okay. And why you want to explore it.

Laura F.: Because I’m interested in all of those things that I, that are around me that I don’t understand. And all those things that I might miss because I also think that art has the capacity of uncovering that, that is in everyday life that we don’t pay attention to. So it’s something that deals with not every life, but with other things that affect us, but we don’t even consider it. So I’m very interested in all of those things that I don’t even know that affect me, but that is affecting me and affecting all of us.

So I’ve always been interested in knowing what’s going on around me. So for me, art has always been a way of understanding or trying to understand the world better. Which is of course a huge question, but that’s, that’s my interest

Nir Hindi: In a second I would like to kind of maybe tackle and give an example of maybe some of the things that you discovered in then and thinkable.

But before that, I want to focus on some of your recent work because I’m in some of your writing in your recent work and I’m quoting, here again, you reflect upon the possibilities of representing that which has no stable form and is basic for life. Like air, water and time. And you kind of took the necessity of humans like air, like water and time that normally we just take them for granted and they don’t have a shape or not necessarily have a form and you want to visualize the invisible, why, why you want to visualize those things?

Laura F.: Because those things that we cannot see or that those things that we, that have no image we can’t think about. When I say, think I don’t mean intellectually only, but just like consider it would be more like we don’t consider those things that we don’t see.

That’s why, for example, when you think about climate change, why aren’t we also worried about it or doing much more than we are doing? I think it’s because the images that we have are not successful, so they don’t affect us and they don’t move us. So those things that we can’t see, we cannot see and that doesn’t affect us. We don’t do anything about them.

So that’s why thinking about all those things that are basic, and that allows us to be here like air. We don’t think about it as you say, we just take it for granted, but we need to think about those things because we have to do something about those things, too. I mean, for example, when you think about climate change, it’s very clear, right?

Nir Hindi: Yeah. In a second, I want to touch it. The climate change project that you are involved in, but you know, it’s kind of, I remember that one, we did, we had this event here at the Google campus and by the way, me and Laura know each other from an event we organize around the visualization of ideas. And it was part of the monthly or bi-monthly events that we organize around those topics. And one of the projects that you did over there was kind of trying to the, depict, the snow in New York. What is the, maybe the end, for depicting, the snow, the weight falls on the Hudson River in New York?

Laura F.: So that had to do with rendering air peaceable. I just, sometimes I just start filming without any particular idea or scope. So I started filming the snow falling on the Hudson River. And then I realized that there are no ways that made air visible. So I started drawing and there’s no falling and it was a way of, dealing with the representation of air, but also dealing with representation in the history of art, because I work a lot with drawings most or a lot of the times its sort of big scale.

And, it’s a drawing that becomes more like a space in a way, but I always work with those elements that are basic. So drawing functions as lines or dots, you know, colors, and those are the basic elements. So I started drawing, making just tiny marks on the paper and then on the walls, because it also accounts for time passing.

So when you start making marks, you start notating time, which it takes me back again to the process, like that process of being there, making the drawing is also very important because it condenses, something that we are also not very, we don’t know how to think about which is time, which is also very important, I think, for us in the world.

Nir Hindi: So from all those experiments and kind of personal journeys to discover unthinkable. Did you encounter things that I don’t know, surprised you made you see our world differently or gave you a different perspective on things that help you change your mind?

Laura F.: That’s a very difficult question to answer, because I do think I’ve discovered things on the way, but they are not major discoveries. Like, Oh, you know, this is going to change because I also think that that’s not how art works, art can make changes. I am absolutely certain about it, but they are always very small things, but those small things, one after the other account for a big thing. Maybe later on something might come to my mind, but, but I’ve been thinking about that since, you know, for a little bit.

And I, I don’t know. I can’t say, Oh, you know, now I understand this, or I understand that, but it’s more like, like I feel more connected or maybe to the world in a way, or that I feel like certain things make sense, but I wouldn’t know if I could explain what those things are.

Nir Hindi: So it’s kind of a personal journey for you to try to understand the world, not necessarily communicating.

Laura F.: Well, it is personal, the starting point is personal, but I’m not interested in just, you know, navigating. But I think that which is affect us, can be communicated to other people. We just have to find the right balance between that, which is personal and that, which is, you know, public or political, of course the personal is the political, but I think that what I’m thinking about are things that interest that are like universal in a way.

So it is personal for me because, as you know, the driving forces, I want to understand certain things, but I want to understand in order to show or not show, but more share what I might find, but what I might find might not be exactly what you find when you encounter my work, which is also what makes art big and important, right?

It’s not always, it’s not that I’m saying something that is a truth or communicating a truth, I’m just putting things out there and different people connect to different parts of those things that are put out there. So that’s why I think art is also really important because in those connections, that are always individual, but you know, you can change a little something or maybe see things in a little different way and things, and the world might become, I don’t know, maybe a better place.

Nir Hindi: It’s interesting. You know, because one time we spoke and you spoke about art; is a way to change perspective and kind of what is that all about? What are your thoughts on that? I mean,

Laura F.: Well, I think so for me, the more moving experiences I’ve had, well beyond having a baby, which is falls in a different realm, but the most important experiences I have had, had to do with art, like those things that have impacted me in a way that would make me want to do something about things, have had to do with art.

So, I think art has that capacity of, you know, like I’m hearing you somewhere. You know, aesthetics is, has to do precisely with the impacts of the body, Like the body is affected by what we see in the world or what, what we experienced in the world. Art is a very particular experience as very sophisticated, I think when it’s good art where I find and the impacts that are might have on you, or that has had on me had helped me be more aware of myself, of the world of certain things.

When we become more aware, I think we become more human and we become more interesting and important, and the world becomes a better place and I do believe that that’s what art can do. So I think the changes in society have had to do with art always.

Nir Hindi: Great. Yeah. I also a big believer on art and obviously what we do at Artian and is why we think art is so important. I remember that also we talked and you kind of, I don’t know if surprise me, but it’s kind of how you spoke about art as a physical thing, but not necessarily a spiritual thing.

I mean, you spoke about obviously the spiritual dimension, but you also talked about the physical dimension of art. What is the physical dimension of art? How you see it kind of formula?

Laura F.: Art is I think, well, art can be defined in many ways. One of the things is that art could be considered as a form of knowledge, that emerge, emerges when you’re working with the material as an artist. So in the process of working with the material, certain things happen and you have to be aware of what’s going on. So you have a little bit of a conversation there with those things, and then, that stuff that you put out there relates it’s out there in the world and in the unfolding of life and the work world, and people can relate to it with their lives and their bodies and the impacts that we receive either visually or, you know, when we listen to things or even if we can touch, or if we experience things are having to do with our senses and our senses are connected to our body. So it’s always physical and that’s really important because we tend to think that, Oh, things just happen in our head and in our mind, but that’s not true. I mean, we don’t have a, just like a thinking head that is that that’s from our body, we think, and we feel with the body. So that’s why it’s very important to consider all of that aspect, that art is not just an idea. But it’s something that has to have a physical,

Nir Hindi: So I’m not sure I’m familiar a lot with the work that you mentioned, the embody cognition group, this is the group with the scientist, or this is different one?

Laura F.: So this is a, we, so I belong to two, research groups in Complutense. One is, we deal with more with climate change.

Nir Hindi: We talk about it in a second, I want to talk about the embody cognition group.

Laura F.: Right. So the embody condition group is a group where we are thinking about all the ways we think with our body.

So it it’s a very, actually, it’s quite, there’s a lot going on about embodied commission lately, because it has to do with, you know, the very famous thing that I think, therefore, I am, it’s like, well, it’s not just that, because we don’t think we don’t have thoughts that are that’s from our bodies, now we know from research and that the body, that we sense that we feel, and we think with our full body.

So in this research group that different people, it’s, it’s a small group. We are all women, which is kind of interesting. It’s very good. So some people are working with, for example, movement, how movement, as we said before, like art changes perspective in order to change perspective, you have to move. I mean, if you are static and you’re looking at things in one, when, you know, from one perspective you want change your, your point of view.

So some people are working with movement. That means some are more, sort of, let’s say dance related, but not necessarily just dance, but you know what happens when, when you move and you start feeling differently, other people are working more with, how to communicate knowledge.

Other people are like, I am working with the specific knowledge that emerges in the artistic practice, which I think is really important. We all know that art produces knowledge, but we don’t know how to talk about that. So I’m trying to do some research on that. Other people are working with technology like virtual reality and all these devices that allows us to have other experiences that go beyond our senses in the regular sense.

Sorry to repeat the word, so like, uh, 3D cameras and, you know, in immersive reality. So it has to do with different approaches to what, how the body enters the scene and how we think with our body.

Nir Hindi: So this is one kind of an embody cognition group, one group that you are part of and, you know, often have been asked. Okay. But you know art is, how they can influence our world and beside the spiritual aspect, obviously in my world, in the business world, people kind of ask me, okay, where art is irrelevant, then I can elaborate on that a lot, a lot. And later in a different podcast, I will touch some of those ideas.

But one of the topics that kind of I thought is interesting is the example that we discussed about how artists work with scientists. So we hear a lot about climate crisis. I heard that even the change has turned from climate change to climate crisis, and we know that we are hurting the planet and, and obviously there are a lot of voices against what we do, but still people don’t do anything about it.

You just joined kind of a group of researchers with their scientists to kind of think together how you can make the crisis climate or the climate crisis, actually more personal to people to make it, to touch them, with them. What is this exactly this research group? And how do you find it working with scientists?

Laura F.: It’s a very interesting thing that is happening, which is that we feel like climate change or climate crisis is part of the future. So it’s something that is in our horizon and we’ll never get to the horizon, so it’s never going to happen. Why is this? I think it’s because we have not been effective enough to communicate, you know, the crisis because also the images we have created that don’t affect us.

When I say images, like a lot of science works a lot with, you know, like charts and data. We’ve talked about this before. How can you make that a little bit more appealing so people can be affected by that, in a way that, that doesn’t make them lose interest, because as the other thing, we have either apocalyptic images of the future, so people, so what are our chances, right?

If, if the world is going to explode, well, we let’s just forget about it, let’s just enjoy while we can, right? There’s, there’s our reaction on the other reaction that we don’t understand all these charts, so we don’t connect to that. But I think a lot of scientists are actually trying to also be affected and also feel and sense with their bodies, not just with those charts and, you know, and data collecting.

Nir Hindi: Yeah, it goes exactly to the all I think of out or making feeling of make you feel something, and it’s kind of interesting, the things that you do, the body cognition, the target is physical, the things that are, and that you’re trying to discover that are thinkable, all of these kind of form in this group. So

Laura F.: Yeah. Yeah. Everything I’m always doing the same thing. I’m thinking about the same things in different ways, but yeah. And the other thing that is also very interesting is that, I think science. Well science and art, they used to be together, and then at a certain point, you know, knowledge wherever, like in, I think it was well probably before the 19th century, but there’s this, this

Nir Hindi: Separation of two cultures.

Laura F.: Right. Which is the absurd, right. 

Nir Hindi: We actually, as you know, exactly against the separation, but actually merging disciplines, not separating.

Laura F.: Right? Because it’s just different ways of thinking about the same things. We are all humans and we share mostly the same concerns. And the way we think about those things are might be a little bit different, but we can help each other. Right? I mean, we just said before, like a change of perspective implies a real change, then if we, two people that work in different disciplines work together, they might be affected by each other and then produce something,

Nir Hindi: Creative collision.

Laura F.: Exactly.

Nir Hindi: So how is it to work with scientists?

Laura F.: Well, in some cases it’s, it’s really inspiring. And in some cases, sometimes it’s frustrating because a lot of the times, or, well, I guess it depends, I should say some scientists or some parts of the science are trying to prove something they want to prove. So they are just very fixated with that. And it’s, that’s very. It’s supposed to the way art works in my understanding, which is you don’t really know why you are doing, you are just doing stuff and things happen, start to happen. And then you have to be attentive to that which is happening so that you can collect, you know, the stuff I’m presenting out there. So, Sometimes it’s just a little bit of a loss in translation kind of thing.

Nir Hindi: Okay. So, you know, it’s interesting. I want to go back to that point that you mentioned that sometimes you just collect things and kind of, you know, you don’t exactly know what you’re doing, but you are on the way, and this is in a way, the way you work and I’m interested in why you work that way, why you don’t decide on an idea and just do it, but rather kind of collecting things?

Laura F.: Because I, well, I’ve been giving a little bit of thought to this question and there is, a psychologist that I, this very interesting, he is called Adam Phillips and he talks about attention and he says, there’s two kinds of attention, there is one that, which is the attention we pay when we know what we are doing. Let’s say, I don’t know, we want to finish a crossword and we have to find that word, right? Like the word that is missing, so we are very focused, paying attention, thinking about that specific thing.  So that’s one form of attention, but there’s another form of attention, which is that we pay when we don’t really know what we are looking for. We know we are, you know, we know we have something we are interested in, but we don’t exactly know. So we are paying a, like a more scatter way form of attention.

So we are just looking at different things and all of a sudden things start to fall in place. And we get to something, but we get to something that we couldn’t anticipate. So I’m interested in that. I’m not interested in having an idea and just deploying that idea because th0en the end result, I already know, So why bother? So I’m more interested as, as we said before in that process where, you know, you know, you’re interested in something, but you cannot quite tell what it is so you start looking around,

Nir Hindi: Exploring.

Laura F.: Exactly.

Nir Hindi: And it’s interesting because you know what, I’m coming from the business world and, you know, it’s in the business world often I see kind of companies that they want to innovate and they plan to innovate and they kind of knowing where they are going. And it’s kind of remind me one of Steve jobs, a comments, in his Stanford commencement in June, 2005, you cannot connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards, so you have to trust the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have a trust in something, your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. And when I do a lot of mentoring also to startups, I kind of try to transmit them that, sometimes we don’t know where we are going and we need to be able to deal with uncertainty and ambiguity. And instead of just deciding what will happen, that’s not innovation is just following a plan that someone you already did. It’s kind of, you know, it brings me back to another aspect of the, the world of art, because that’s why I think the connection between art and innovation is very, very, close connection, what, what you need that the way of thinking in innovation is very similar to the way art is a thing. And it’s kind of brings me to another thing that we spoke about, which is questioning, and, you know, a [NAME] said that the all of art is to ask questions, so not to answer them. And we spoke about that. I’m also interested to hear your perspective about what art and questionings have in common?

Laura F.: Well, all you said, it’s really interesting because I think that curiosity is also a super important driving force, and we have to dare to be curious and to remain curious in order to discover those things that that might be, you know, innovation in the sense of something that we, you know, that we haven’t thought about before, so, so I think it’s very interesting that connection that you make there, going to your question about art, being able to ask questions, I think, we have too many answers, but in the process of having all those many answers, we forget what the question is, what the questions are. So I do think, I agree that art is, able to ask or re ask those questions that have been buried by so many answers. It could be very, very, very simple questions, but you know, in life, I think as life goes on, we just get very confused about, you know, everything in terms of, you know, everyday life, we almost have no time to stop and think, and when I say, think it’s not, I don’t mean intellectually, but just to be in the world to be in the present. Right? That’s also very the possibilities of art of making something present, making those questions present again is, It’s really important because we, we forget, we forget, we just get, you’re not trapping our, you know, going from one thing to the other, you know, solving tasks, and at the end of the day, it’s like, what, what, what is it we are doing?

Nir Hindi: Yeah. I mean before one of the listeners thing, it’s a new age podcast. Let me, let me tell them that, you know, I think that when you read the research, you see that actually questioning is one of the important skills for innovative people, the ability to actually challenge the status quo and push boundaries, and most of them, the most successful companies in the world actually started by just asking, why not, why we cannot do that? A while all the industry tried to kind of push them to think in a certain way. So, you know, in other kinds of the thing I think is very element also the ability of that is obviously the ability also to visualize a world and some of the things that you are dealing with is air and time, et cetera. Today we are living in kind of, of a world that, you know, the, the business world is very, very obsessed with data. And you hear the word, big data science, in data analysis and data visualization, but I feel that we aggregate these massive amounts of data without necessarily doing something with it.

Companies are so obsessed with collecting it that in a way they forget, to do something with it and one way to do it is actually visualize it to people, because your work deal with so intangible things like air, like time, like, space, et cetera, I’m interested, maybe you can teach us something and share with us how you approach your visualization ideas when you need to visualize the light in Rome. For example,

Laura F.: Yeah, that’s a very good question. So I always work with, for example, with, with the light in Rome, I start thinking about what makes light, what defines light, what are the attributes or, right. So I think so light, light is, it’s radio. So from a source of light, light, is like the sun, the race of light, travel in a radial way and in straight lines.

So that’s, that’s you, you already have, how, how can you visualize light, just with straight lines, in a radial way. So with that in mind, I start testing and, you know, working to see how can I make light emerge. How can I be visualize a light through the marks making of that belong, that belong to drawing. So I’m always, I’m always, in the very much in the tradition of drawing and what drawing is and what drawing means, which is a way of seeing the world, but it’s also a way of marking. So in the specifically about in the Rome project, all of my drawings are constituted by lines that start from a point and expand.

Nir Hindi: Yeah. By the way, for the listeners they have and has seen the work of it, we will put it on our website. Normally it’s a loud scale, painting. She works a lot with pencil, it’s very, very time consuming, I would say. So you will get the chance to see it, but more importantly, hopefully soon you will get the chance to kind of even experience it in real life.

But I want to go back to your work with this, how you, started to visualize light and you mentioned the fact that you take the basics of light and then the basics of art and combined between the two.

Laura F.: Exactly. And then I just start testing, the other thing that, that I thought about, which is not my fault, it’s just obvious is that we see because there’s light. So the interruptions of light, when life is interrupted, we don’t see. So I work with the notion of interruption too. So the lines, the lines would interrupt and create an image. It’s hard to explain if you don’t see it, but I think if you see the image, you can understand what I’m saying. So basically what I try to do is to take things to the minimum, like get rid of all the stuff that is interfering and get to the bones of the problem or the question I’m thinking about like, okay, light, how does it transmit? How is it possible that we see? Then go to those three aspects and then worry with that?

Nir Hindi: It’s interesting because you know, now you’re are talking and I’m kind of reflecting again on things that I think about, when you look at the way up designers work is actually is by all the time, taking the unnecessary things and just using it to the essence of the product while all the companies still trying to add more and more features up and trying to take more and more features just to get to the essence in order to make it a great product.

How do you see like your approach maybe, or kind of, if I go with the same line of thinking about how you started with the lights, what are some of the things people might be able to think about this from your side when it comes to their own to visualize data?

Laura F.: Well, I think, I would say then the more specific you can be the better, I mean, data is just data, whatever data, but some of that data might relate to people or data might relate to, I don’t know, performance in the internet, whatever. So I think it would be the same thing, like okay, if this data relates to how people behave, doing searches on the internet, what’s the specific, you know, thing that defines that particular data and then, then maybe you might discover something. You know, you might discover that, I don’t know, I’m just making this up, that, that it has to do more with, you know, people being in a particular mood or, you know, so then you have elements that you can work with that relate to something that is, that goes beyond data.

Nir Hindi: Yeah, no, no, no. Very, very, very interesting. You know, because now I’m kind of, you know, again, all the time, your conversation with your reflecting and so one of the things that the, if I’m not mistaken in there is even a Ted talk by that artist about it. When is the highest peak of Facebook, a user or something like this? And they found that in December or January, and what they realized is that, people break up in the new year’s resolution of relationship, and it goes back that yes, we have the data, but as you said, it’s related to a mood, it’s relate to emotions, it relates to something that translate into a number and, you know, you teach kind of a, you teach students and one of the whole, as we said about art is to ask questions and I’m interested how you push your students to go out of their comfort zone?

Laura F.: It’s hard because they resist, so while, while I see my role is, is to push them exactly out of their comfort zone, but to force them to look at things differently because that’s also another, another way of being able to produce something different, right? Or to do something different, it’s when you change, your perspective. So something that I’ve been discovering this, well, it’s been a while, but lately I’m more focused on this, it’s like I teach drawing and people want to make forms and this might relate to the data you were just discussing. People wanted to draw shapes and forms for getting that the forms and shapes as the result of something, of a structure. So I tell them, you have to draw the structure or you have to have the structure in your mind, you can just go ahead and just throw them, you know, the figure we work a lot with, with the human body. You can’t just go out and do the profile of something. You have to know what’s inside that thing. So I that’s one way of pushing them because it’s really, it’s really, we’re not used to trying to think about, form as emergent from the inside and going outside the forms we see are the results of something that is like inside that.

Nir Hindi: Yeah. It’s like, you know, you talk about forming and coming from the inside. It’s like, I always say that no creative companies don’t exist. I always say there are creative individuals that create those. So you need to look into the organization, what people doing in the organization to make it such a creative or unique place. So one way that you do is kind of tell them, don’t look at the form, look at the structure and the essence and start working from the outside, from the inside to the outside.

Laura F.: Right. And another, another thing that is also very interesting, that relates specifically to drawing is when you force people to draw with a hand that is not the,

Nir Hindi: The strongest,

Laura F.: their strong hand. Very interesting things happen and they discover how their head is interfering it, what they want to do. So when you work with the hand, that is the weakest, you are more free. You are more, the drawings become much more interesting, much more alive. There is, there’s something else that is happening. So it shows them that overthinking or when we think with just with the intellective mind, we might be blocking a lot of things

Nir Hindi: are the options. Yeah. So, you know, it’s kind of, it’s, it reminded me one, what we did in our talk for the listeners, you will be able to see the talk that Laura gave, on our website. And one of the things that we did, we gave our participant exercises and what you wanted them to do is to feel data in a way, and one of the things that we ask them to do is to draw something on the back of someone else and the someone that they draw on his or her back needed to say to draw what they felt, the other person drew, why you chose to give them this, this exercise or?

Laura F.: because, so, so I think also art works with translation. So we translate things that we see or see, feel, hear whatever, think into a form that is material. So we are always performing some sort of a task that has to do with translating. So the thing is when you put emotion, like for example, like, other senses, like feeling and feeling something, you know, that is happening in your back, first of all, the bag is not very enervated, so we don’t understand much, you know, very precisely what’s going on. So when we have to translate that, we it’s, it’s like that form of attention that I mentioned before, we don’t really know exactly what it is we are doing, but we know we are doing something so we are focused, but also open, and it’s very interesting to compare both drawings because the person that is drawing on someone’s back, he or she knows what’s he is drawing, and they have a very definite image, like very, you know, conform and wherever, and the other person again has, has the name creates an image that is much more open, much more interesting most of the times, right? If you remember, when we saw the results, we would all agree

Nir Hindi: Yeah, it was very different between what was painted to what the other person that felt.

Laura F.: Right. So, so all of that, what shows us is that we, we are capable of more than we think that we don’t have to just conform to predefined images, again, or, or that we have the capacity of, of altering and creating other images and when I say images, I mean things and thoughts and everything. So when we allow to feel we can, we have bigger options, as you say, or more options.

Nir Hindi: Yeah. It’s yeah, it was very interesting activity. I think we even took some photos, so maybe we can post them also on the, on the web of the, with together with the podcast to kind of show it. Great Laura, I mean, we are getting into the end of our podcast and you know what beautiful, I think at least for me personally, and the people ask me why you taking the time all the time to meet artist is this is exactly those kinds of conversations that allow me to look my world in a different perspective. I think what’s everyone needs to remember is that at the end, not only the interesting things, also the innovation in the world of business come from intersections of disciplines and having kind of this meaningful exchange between a discipline. So before we close our podcast, you have some, you want to say something else to our listeners.

Laura F.: No, I think I might have cover most of what, what I have in mind. So it’s a pleasure, it’s been a pleasure to have this conversation with you because also for me, the business world is kind of alien. I think we talk about this, so, I think it’s, it’s really beautiful to try to find those connections because that’s also where, innovation in the sense of, you know, new things, can happen, not just because of the novelty, but because it might allow us to create something and you know, a better world or something that is better. So it’s been very, very exciting for me. Like not knowing nothing about business and let’s see how those two things can merge.

Nir Hindi: Great. So with this optimistic message to create a better place for us, we’ll finish the podcast. If you would like to see the work of Laura to see the, some of the videos in their research that she mentioned, all of the things will be posted on our page. So stay tuned. Thank you very much. Thank you, Laura.

Laura F.: Thank you.

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And It is very helpful in getting these ideas to a wider audience. If you’re interested to develop your artistic mindset, if you are looking to grow your business, if you want to develop the innovation competencies in your organizations, I will highly recommend you to check out our workshops and trainings.

All available on our website. This episode was recorded from Google for startups, create studio in Madrid, check out Google for startups website to learn more about their support for entrepreneurs. The episode was mixed and mastered by Danielle Dwan. You can subscribe to Artian podcast on Spotify, Apple podcast, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Our previous shows are available on our website, www.theartian.com/podcast. Each episode includes shownotes, guest recommendations, videos, and other materials. We can also be found on our LinkedIn page, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and you can reach us directly via email at [email protected]. So we’ll be waiting here for you in the next episode with me Nir Hindi.

Once again. Thanks for listening.