season 2 episode 14 – organizational development through art | Dr. Giovanni Schiuma

Resources and links

Artworks and other topics mentioned during the podcast can be seen in the following links:

• The Value of Arts for Business book by Dr. Giovanni Schiuma
• LUM University’s webpage
• Arts & Business’ webpage
• illycaffè’s artist cup

Transcripts

The transcript was produced by an AI, mistakes might appear. 

[00:00:00] Nir Hindi: Hey, Giovanni, welcome to the Artian podcast.

Giovanni Schiuma: Thank you very much, Nir. It is a pleasure to be here with you.

Nir Hindi: I am super excited again to our conversation because you published this book, the value of arts for business a few years back. So, you have a lot what to say about art and business, but maybe you can introduce yourself very quickly to our listeners.

Giovanni Schiuma: Of course, I am Giovanna Schiuma. I am based in the Southern Italy, in a town named Matera, which has been appointed the European cultural capital 2019. And Matera is a unique place. It is considered the second oldest town in the world after Jericho. And I think this energy that characterize, Matera is also somehow the energy, which has been affecting my interest in the arts and then the arts in business and the other important [00:01:00] information.

I am professor at the LUM university, which is a growing university, specializing in management economics. And engineering management.

Nir Hindi: So, I have a question. What led you to research the topic of art and business? Because obviously there is not such a discipline, at least not yet that in economics or knowledge management called art in business, but you got into this space.

How did you get there?

Giovanni Schiuma: Traditionally in the management discipline, there is an attention to arts management, which is about the bringing the business principles to the arts. Arts based management is about bringing the arts and the arts principle in business. How I get interested in this topic my original interest was to understand what makes the difference in people.

Action. What is really making an entrepreneur, a manager successful. And the, the key dimension are not [00:02:00] only the cognitive skills, the competence, but very much the emotional, the intrinsic human dimension, this interest in understanding how to engage and leverage this dimension brought me to the arts, because I was exploring how to assess intangible assets, knowledge, which is my original academic topic.

And I was approached by Arts & Business UK, and they were interested in understanding the investment in the arts. And the collaboration of arts and business, how this was producing benefits. So, they approached me in the first place. And then I discovered that there was this connection between the arts, which was really the tool for me to explore how to leverage this human dimension, which make successful businesspeople.

So somehow has been kind of invisible passion for [00:03:00] exploring the deep human nature and what is really making successful people in the companies that somehow brought me to explore the role of arts in business.

Nir Hindi: So, you know, you already mentioned that you discovered some benefits of the arts, and I am wondering what those are benefits that you see.

Giovanni Schiuma: Arts can have multiple benefits. Traditionally arts in business have been applied as a learning tool as a tool for training managers, leaders. But arts in business can have a multitude marketable impact within the organization. And in fact, I see the arts in business as a driver for organizational development.

And basically, I see the arts to transform the organization, to make the organization more value oriented. So capable of understanding the market, understanding the stakeholders and [00:04:00] develop the human and leading dimension of the organization, making the organization an organic system, capable of adapting proacting, uh, in a durable and complex environment in which organization nowadays are working and then to become more innovative and innovative in a large sense.

Capable of developing knowledge and developing innovation solution.

Nir Hindi: In previous conversation, we started to speak about the difference between art in the context of the individual and art in the context of the organization and you look at art as something more holistic in the organization level, what is the difference between looking at it from an individual perspective and from an organization perspective.

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, as I was mentioning before, the use of arts in business is not completely new, but it has been relegated to the use of training and development.

And from that point of view is the connection of the arts with [00:05:00] individual. But I believe that arts as a huge potential nowadays in the 21st century to transform the organization. And when I talk about the organization, I am talking holistically, as you mentioned, The concept of organization looking at all the dimension, distinguishing their organization.

And those dimensions are the tangible infrastructure and the intangible infrastructure. Well, we, in our days that also with the pandemic, we are experiencing that we can work from home smart working, but still your organization is there with the atmosphere, with the culture, with all these intangible infrastructures. So, I believe the arts can be deployed in the organization as a tool.

And my view of the arts and business is very instrumental is not arts for the sake of art, but it is arts for supporting organizational development and that is going to be used to develop people. And this is what you call the human dimension from [00:06:00] learning creativity, point of view, inspiring people, making people more adaptable, but also ask him used as a tool to transform the tangible infrastructure.

So, the workplace in which we operate, but also to touch and transform other intangible dimension, the identity of the organization, the image of the organization, the culture of the organization. How do you build trust? Is one of the key questions that organization has and well, arts can become a tool. And from that point of view, again, arts-based management is about applying for it.

Managerial proposes the arts in the organizational setting, as well as you can use arts for developing products, to develop services. So, arts are a knowledge domain that can be applied for transforming the organization and here is when I see the switch between the traditional industrial model of the organization, where most [00:07:00] of the attention was focused on the relational cognitive knowledge to the need of transforming the organization, making them more human, more adaptable, more resilient.

And from that point of view, you need to bring in the organization, not only the scientific engineering-based knowledge, but also the artistic knowledge and then arts in business, it is about bringing this knowledge domain in the business which traditionally it means considered apart from each other.

Nir Hindi: Yeah, totally. So, you know, I am thinking about now some of my listeners, they probably have a business background, and they ask themselves. Okay. That sounds great. But how do I do it?    What I love about your approach is that you speak not only on the intangible things that we tend to think in organization, the spirit, the energy the human aspect that you also speak about how art can influence the tangible things.  Can you give us maybe an example from all the research that you did for a company that worked with the arts to maybe transform or change or develop tangible [00:08:00] processes or the different environment in their organization?

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, one of the key aspects of a transformational, the tangible infrastructure of the organization is the workplace. If you like the old paradigm was a particularly in the corporation, the open space with the idea that open space would facilitate knowledge, sharing communication, but most of the cases was a way to optimize the space, the logistics of the corporation in big city.

But if we look at the Google office, that is the regional example of the Pixar office. So nowadays the Microsoft office, or most of the new creative oriented spaces, we discover that arts is there to create a space, which is more a creative learning space where people are supported by the environment to think and [00:09:00] act and relate in a different way.

That is a critical example of arts can be used to transform the tangible asset. And I have been working with organizations that even have been using group of artists together with designer to define the boardroom, to define some specific spaces that would facilitate different way of thinking in the people. So, this is a practical example of how.

The arts can transform the tangible infrastructure but let us just make another example. Think about the, even the apple office. One last project of Steve jobs was to create this spaceship office. Well, the idea is the circularity, and the design of the space is artistic based. So well from that point of view, we could discuss what arts is.

And architecture is part of the art design is a part of the arts. So, we are talking about this knowledge domain that is applying [00:10:00] different way to serve your organization or purpose.

Nir Hindi: We often hear about speaking about human centric and the organization energy and the vision and the inspiration, but still business schools are very much inclined into the hard skills and business professionals are, trying to gain those hard skills. And I wonder how we can allow or open opportunities for business professionals to engage with the arts, how we can create those environmental places they can interact, which are going beyond just training.

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, my idea, my theory is that organization should, first, recognize arts as a knowledge domain, that can provide an improvement of their competence.

And when I talk about the companies, I talk about the operational. And the dynamic competence, the dynamic company for competence are about renewing the existing competence. So, it is about [00:11:00] learning, developing, and the operational competence is about improving your efficiency in whatever you do. So, if we look at to the arts as a knowledge domain that you can use for developing your competence from that point of view, you need to develop what I call arts-based initiatives.

So they are. Project specific project specific initiatives that are designed proposedly for developing either people and then all the infrastructure, but with a focus on improving the operational or the dynamic competencies, then how you develop these art-based initiative from pragmatic point of view.

Well, there are many different categories of these initiatives, because you can have an intervention. Which is about just a learning a training section, or you can have arts in residence when you want to stimulate cultural environment, or you can use arts as a way [00:12:00] to address topics around the culture, the behavior of the organization.

Or you can arts as a way for prototyping new products or to redesigning your organization. So is, uh, the, the use of arts can cover a really a broad spectrum. And for pragmatic point of view is a management initiative. That needs to be designed against specific strategic objectives, having in mind some specific performance objectives, and then you design the arts business initiatives to solve your problems in the organization.

And then you can track how this initiative are improving your performance and make an impact within your organization.

Nir Hindi: You had touched upon a few things that I want to ask you. The first one, you mentioned art to improve efficiency now for every, I think business professional, it sounds contradicting to think about art for improving efficiency.

[00:13:00] What do you mean when you say art can improve efficiency in business context?

Giovanni Schiuma: Well efficiency traditionally is the capacity of optimizing the use of resources to achieve a specific output. So, you can use art a way to, for example, engage people in the many organizations, people know very well what to do.

But you are not sure if you are doing and they are adopting, they point their knowledge. And that is because sometimes people are bad touch from their work activities. So, if you want to improve the efficiency, the productivity, you need to make sure that people are engaged. I like to use the concept of being in love with what you do.

Well, not everyone in the workplace can be in love with what is she doing? Because we know that sometimes we do a lot of things because we need to pay the bills, but you can use [00:14:00] arts to let people to explore and understand in what they are doing, what they really like. And then how they can be motivated in what they do simply this is a cultural perspective is a mindset dimension that helps to be engaged and then to improve everyday activities.

Then from there, you can generalize and open and think about most of the people do a lot of activities. that do not create value. So, you could use also use arts to identify. If you like in a lean thinking approach, what are the key activity is creating value? So, arts are a tool, it is an instrument that helps to go through a process to identify how and what to improve and how to better engage people from that point of view becomes an incremental innovation mechanism, but of course, arts can be also used to regenerate the radical innovation [00:15:00] when you use arts to force the creativity imagination. And then in that case, you try to bring art in specific space, which I call innovation lab. Where the arts become the driver for thinking in an open box way.

It did not defy your opportunity, that can transform your product, your processes, the way our organization is operated.

Nir Hindi: So, you know, you are touching another point that I want to discuss because for me, art, is not about object for me. Art is a way of thinking. It is a mindset, and it is a very innovative mindset.

Now you mentioned before that art is a tool and I want to ask you, what would you say for someone that is thinking about art as a tool in comparison to art? As a way of thinking,

Giovanni Schiuma: I would say. Art is, and it is my fundamental hypothesis about the use of arts in business arts. Arts called is an aesthetic technology.

[00:16:00] I love it because of technology. So, art, what is power of art is that enable us to experience our aesthetics. So is a, is an aesthetic meaning. Which means, which equals to say that arts can be used as a way for thinking aesthetically, which means we use our senses as human beings to make sense of, but also, we use art to shape the properties of the object around us in doing so we induce, we embed.

The aesthetic properties into the products. So, at the same time, art becomes of the street, which is about thinking in artistic way, but also becomes art for in the sense that you bring art in some specific objects. But what is the really underlying mechanism is the ability of thinking and acting aesthetically.

[00:17:00] And that is where the power lies. Arts is a way of using human senses to explore outer and inner world and making sense and building using that, building this object. So, when we think about the tools, like what, I do not want, want to make any promotion here, but the, when we think about our app for phones, there are no visual app, but we know how Steve jobs was obsessed about the aesthetics of the products.

So that is the way a pragmatic way of looking at how the arts is applied in the object. Is this looking for the aesthetics? What are the feelings? What is the emotion? The energy and arts are all about. This it is about; aesthetics it is about aesthetic organizational development either is the key concept of the use of arts in business.

Nir Hindi: I have another question because I really love the perspective that you bring to the table. So, someone that listening to [00:18:00] you probably ask himself or herself aesthetics it is beauty. And do you think that art is only about beauty, or do you refer aesthetics in a different way? What do you mean when you say aesthetics?

Giovanni Schiuma: in

the common language?

We tend to associate the aesthetics to beauty, but aesthetics as a philosopher would teach us is a way of experiencing the world. For Vico, which was one of the first philosopher and an Italian one, studying aesthetics aesthetic is about using human senses to understand the world. So, for me, aesthetic is how do we use the senses.

And how we use the senses to create, to experience the world. And then you realize that arts become very important because arts become the way to understand how customer are experiencing your product. And then you design around the customer, [00:19:00] you use arts as a weight one, to understand how your employees are experiencing your workplace.

And then you use art to transform your workplace or to design your product. Or again, transforming technologies that are not just technologies, but that when you touch them, you have a different feeling. And if I invite you again, just to make some promotional here, then hopefully I will get the YouTube.

I invite.

you to touch. Your Mac and

you would see that there is a completely different, well, meanwhile, I am touching my Mac, I am using, and then I am using an Apple computer. So, as you know, I have both systems, but again is the aesthetics.  The apps are all about the experience. So that is where the trick is.

Is aesthetics being not beauty is about using the senses to make sense of the world.

Nir Hindi: Let me try to ask you for an example that I think of, and [00:20:00] you tell me if this is aesthetics.  Steve jobs said that to make it engaging for the customer, you need to be able to play a song in three steps.

Not make it too complicated.  And in a way it is very straightforward but make it also very easy to understand and use.

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, when we think about aesthetics, we are talking about how people think. So, what you are mentioning is a, in a process way, a simplified way to say that people. Wants to be intuitive. We do not want to have complicated things.

We, professor engineers go through complicated, but everyday life, we want to have easy things. We want to take open the box and be able to use. We do not want to go through the manual and study all the different function. We want to have something intuitive. So what Steve Jobs was proposing is that what we need to do is to build intuitive way of using the technology.

Nir Hindi: Yes.

Giovanni Schiuma: If you want to understand [00:21:00] how from intuitive point of view to use the technology the aesthetics is, well, is that the way are we experienced? And understanding the aesthetics is about understanding how people. Interact with the objects interact with the reality. So, from that point of view, yes.

Is if you like, that is an, an, a good example of aesthetics because it is all about exploring and then translating in a process way, how people would interact. Another interesting way of looking at think about this is something that is always in, uh, intriguing me. Uh, nowadays we are very much in some senses.

It is all the touch, the view, but think about the smell.

Nir Hindi: Yeah.

Giovanni Schiuma: Think about this smell. One day we will have computer will smell differently and the smell will make us attractive or less attractive. So again, in that case, if you will, one day say, well, I want to understand and know what they are when you walk in [00:22:00] a shop or when you buy a perfume is easier.

No, there are these nasals, there are people that are experts in the difference. No one sees of the smell. Again, they try to codify how do we experience in a process way to make product accessible? So, I, in the case that they were mentioning of Steve jobs about the songs, he was translating in a process way, the way, how we aesthetically experience in their case, the use of music or the selection of music.

So that is a good example, and this can be generalized, but again, it is about understanding. And this is very important. Sorry if I make the other comment because this is also related to the neuroscience. In the last 10 years, we have been making big jump in understanding how our brain is working and discovering that what we call it, emotional intelligence, but basically how do we use in our relational capacity?

The [00:23:00] emotional dimension aesthetics is bringing in this dimension. And arts become the tool to explore not only the logic thinking, which is typical of engineering and science, which has been the parody of the theoretic approach, but also how do we make sense? We become resilient. We experienced the reality, and we enjoy that reality, which is what arts bring in the business.

And that is the reason why I call the post-modernism. So, the arts are driving the transformation of the organization from the modern dimension, which is the engine eristic. And is the theoretic approach towards a new model where you integrate the old paradigm with a new one. When you recognize this, aesthetic feeling emotional dimension that.

Add brand new and improve their bearing capacity of the organization.

Nir Hindi: So, I have an important question over here because you know, the business world [00:24:00] and engineering world and science world, they like to measure.  Do you have an idea for how we can measure art in business?

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, I have an idea. I am going to suggest my idea. But at the same time, I would like to start with, uh, an image, how would you measure a good glass of wine? The difference from a candy or so, is it part of the experience the point?

Is this a provocation being that, uh, to prove that arts are kind of had in the Jewish too, a lot of things that we do, but art is pragmatic? So, the way to measure you cannot put a direct line. You cannot trace a direct line between an investment in arts and your financial performance.

Nir Hindi: Yeah.

Giovanni Schiuma: So, if you would say, I make an invest in arts in residence and my shares go up. I would say that is not it is difficult, but it is [00:25:00] possible. If you have a clear understanding of the cause and effect, relationship that explain why you are implemented the arts initiative in the organization, then you can check and trace the link to your performance. So let me make you an example.

If you think about an organization and you would believe that culture and behavior is a critical dimension in your organization, and you know that the culture of your Salesforce. Affect your sales performance. Then if you develop an art-based initiative that the transform the car show the sales form, then you will see the impact on the outcome of the sales force performance.

So that is the way how to think when to measure art. You cannot trace a direct line, but you need to go through what are your hypothesis explaining- why, how you’re using the arts and how this is linked to the other performance in my book, I [00:26:00] suggest the use of metrics or cost effort, relationship, um, similar to the strategy map that helps to understand why you are investing in the arts and then you make your own hypothesis and then you can  track and see if this has been producing an impact in your organization.

Nir Hindi: Giovanni.

I want to kind of go back to something you mentioned, because I really love how you define it, aesthetic technology. And from now on, I am going to use it as well. I really, really love it. It is a great definition. And one of the things that you mentioned kind of in your words, is this experience and design.

And what I see today in the world is that everyone is so obsessed with user experience and customer experience and the interface design and make it intuitive and make it beautiful, but still the artists and the art are not brought into these discussions. What do you think on that?

Giovanni Schiuma: Well, I mean, I, [00:27:00] somehow, I disagree in the sense that the arts are already used in the design process.

When we think about design is an applied form of art. So indeed, already for developing both products and services, the design dimension is relevant, but there is still a lot of space for other kinds of artists. To come and to get involved in the process   I want to make just a short comment because very often we think that bringing arts or artist in the organization is about art-based management.

So, we think that we take an artist, we bring in the organization, something magical will happen or the new product. The new design no, it is not like that. I mean, arts in management are still a management discipline where art and artists, they do their own job, but it is up to the manager to those that design what I call the arts architect [00:28:00] to design the use of the arts and the power of the arts for building, for example, the user experience, we cannot expect enough to scamming and transforming the user experience.

So, then it is about understanding with the use and the thinking, the creativity of the artists, what we can do. One simple example, but I think it is emblematic and clear if we think a very simple, uh, uh, object that we use every day, the shower. And if we think what is the, the most, the innovative dimension of, the shower from a user experience, point of view.

If you think in that few years, 10 years ago, they got to go. There was about not the jacuzzi stuff and those that the board that, that kind of shower never really used, but nowadays you use a chromotherapy. You combine the water with the light and the light is giving you different from chromotherapy point of view, [00:29:00] different feeling.

That is a good example, to understand how the arts and then the use of aesthetics can be used in order. To build a user experience and this can be generalized to any other dimension from services to products, Illy Caffe, illy caffe, Italian company, famous coffee production. They were the first to introduce the artist cup.

Now in Italy, we go to the bar, we very quickly get the coffee and leave. Well, they thought why we do not let artists design this cup. So, in that moment that we just experienced the coffee is not only the quality of the car, but also the aesthetic experience. So, these are good example of how you can use the arts in different way.

To build and design the user experience. And again, the shop of apple, apple store is not being designed for selling the products are being designed to experience the product.  So here is just a few [00:30:00] example, but then of course, the idea is that you build a team.

That worked with the company in a proper way to use the artistic thinking to understand how people experience or would experience product services. And then around that understanding you design your product and services,

Nir Hindi: I really like how you say that apple did not design shop to sell the product, but to experience the product?

So, you know, you touch again, very important points. So many important points to discuss is that. The business world has their own language. The artist has their own language. How do you bridge those differences in an organization?

Giovanni Schiuma: That is another big, I would say a concern and issue that we have in arts-based management, because as I was mentioning very often, we think they are bringing in an artist, we are going to solve some problems.

You need to have people that are proficient. With both languages with the arts and the business [00:31:00] that can understand the power of arts and use the arts and the problem, of the business, and they work as a translator between the arts and, the business. And that is what, I mean, one of the reasons why I believe arts in business is still struggling.

To emerge because we still do not have those professions. We still do not have those professionals that are proficient in the arts world in terms not of being an artist, but in terms of understanding the power of the arts and on the other hand are also capable of fully understanding the problem. of.

The company, in some cases, we are experiencing some companies, some consultancy company. That are starting to use art as a, as a cool tool just to repackage there, old service. But this is not arts in business.

Nir Hindi: This is maquillage.

Giovanni Schiuma: Yeah. Yeah. We talk about something else. [00:32:00] So I think we need to develop what I call the arts architects in some cases.

I met good artists that they develop their profession in consultancy. And then nowadays they can design, specializing themselves in some areas like theater-based intervention or leadership development. We can design some products, uh, services but this is still a lack that we have or in some cases, and this is very interesting.

In those organizations that use arts, you will always find an executive. who had in his life, exposure to arts, so can help somehow has been already contaminated? I know that contamination is a nice word. He has been contaminated with the art, and we have this, uh, virus positive virus, which is understand which, which makes him or her [00:33:00] able to see how the arts can be deployed in your organization.

Nir Hindi: I really love it because I always say for me personally, there is no such thing, innovative and creative organization. It is innovative and creative individuals. that decide to design the organization in that way. And every time I look at company that bring artists into the organization, you will always see one person or a group of people, but they are very well-defined, and they are, as you said, they have.

this passion. They have this belief, uh, without knowing if it will bring the result, they just know it needs to be there. Why? Exactly not all of them know from my experience, but they know it need to be part. And this is for me in a way how I also link it to innovation, because what I find interesting is that the business world tries kind of plan to innovate.

And I feel that [00:34:00] innovation in many ways is also required. A lot of exploration. You go to the unknown without necessarily knowing what you will find, which is very much similar for me in the process of art. You start with the blank canvas, and you do not know. What exactly you will find. So, what is your opinion on the relationship between art and innovation?

Giovanni Schiuma: Well,

I see innovation as a the generation of new knowledge. So, art is new knowledge is an artistic knowledge, as we were talking about the aesthetic technology is an aesthetic knowledge. So, I see apps as a powerful tool to support the creation of, new forms of knowledge, and, um, and these forms of knowledge, this new tool is, uh, is related to the human dimension.

So, the power of nowadays, I mean, we could a look at to the different classification of innovation, but I want to focus on [00:35:00] the idea that a the spark for innovation is the, the curiosity, the imagination, even before the creativity. And this is what arts bring in this ability. Then we think that artists are by definition in.

Somehow it is true because they are, they like to be provocative, but not all the artists like to be provocative. So, the innovation they arts as a driver for innovation is because it is about bringing the, the organization new forms of knowledge. Which cross 50 lies the existing knowledge marking, the creation of innovation.

So that is where the power of the arts for innovation is. Then from a pragmatic point of view, you can use arts for training the people to be more. Imaginative, you can use art for a prototyping, a new product, or for brainstorming, so you can use the techniques, but the real, the [00:36:00] roots, the engine of art of innovation in relation to the arts is a bringing new forms of knowledge and new forms of thinking in the organizational context.

Nir Hindi:  Giovanni

we are getting into the end of our podcast. And I want to ask you for one tip to our listeners.

Let us assume we have business professional business manager, listening to us now and interested to explore this field.  How can they start exploring the context of art or the relationship of art in business?

Giovanni Schiuma: What I would suggest starting small. But to start from the top start small, because you need to learn to explore, to get familiar with this new reel, but you need to start from a problem that is at the center of your heart.

That is at the core of your heart. That is relevant to you. And then you start to explore how the arts can really contribute to solve that problem. Then [00:37:00] it is very important to try to build a team around the initiative, the team, where there are people from the company that are supported. So, there must be a championship from the top, uh, supporting the initiative and then you need to have art.

That are specifically identified in relation the problem that you need to solve to the challenge that you have. And, you have a consultant, a consultant, who I call the arts architect. This consultant can be also the people, the employees within your organization, not necessarily has to be someone from outside world, but preferably should be someone that is already experienced with bridging arts and business.

So, you build the team. And you start small in the sense that you start with the prototype projects and then you grow as you can start to see the effect of the arts and [00:38:00] the other suggestion, small start, small connecting to the top, but also. You must approach the initiative, not as something nice to have something that you believe is relevant and you try.

And even if it is very complicated to prove that you have initiatives. So very often I have been, uh, you know, manager in plenty the business and say, ah, it was cool. We had, after this, we were so fun. And then, okay. And then let us go back to our work because most fun, but not. Even if it was fun, maybe this proposal was the fun.

But in that case, how fun has been creating value for the company has improved the performance. So, which means that you still need to have in mind and that you are putting money in an initiative, they need to produce a positive impact in how the organization is operating. And then when you have these [00:39:00] principles in mind, Then I am sure that the initiative would work.

And then about that, what kind of initiative, what is up really to the problem. And that is the reason why in my book, I have been also trying to devise some ideas. Like I call the asset value metrics where I can see the arts for useful training for reputation, for a workspace, for change management, for designing your product for networking.

So, you need to design what kind of initiative you want to address.

Nir Hindi: I

think it is great. I really like it start small start from the top, which kind of always go back to this management commitment to this approach. Uh, obviously I do not know if it is for everyone, but I hope it will become, as you just said, kind of a business discipline.

That is at least my aspiration. I really believe that as you mentioned at the end organizations build on human, there is not a humanistic. Object or approach or thinking [00:40:00] better than art, at least from my perspective, Giovanni, thank you very, very much. I hope we can meet in real life and have a kha-nyou beta.

And

Giovanni Schiuma: hug

each other

Nir Hindi: and

enjoy,

enjoy the experience.

oh, for wine, without trying to analyze the processes of the wine. So, thank you again, Lisa, that is interested. You can check it out. Giovanni’s book the value of arts for business by Cambridge university, uh, available on Amazon. And I guess also on your website, we will add all the links to, uh, Giovanni profile and the book on the show notes stay tuned for the next episode.

Giovanni. Thanks again.

Giovanni Schiuma: Thank you.